I frankly think Matt has already shared too much about the
system especially considering since it was launched there was a
general overview and then the rest was noted as a "Black
Box". The box is not the clear box, its black, meaning no
much read through. I think that people tend to start and get
emotional, maybe to ascr's point due to over-leveraging or maybe
just being down on a position, and then they want details - which
is understandable - but the details of the system are proprietary
and I believe Matt and BPT should err on the side of caution and
share less.
Also, I know the details of the system and trust me it doesn't
change being in a down position. You think it will change
things knowing this or that but it doesn't because it doesn't
change your current positions. It is emotion, IMO.
I agree with you Tom. But, to be fair, the knife cuts both
ways. Part of the burden that the owner of a black box system
has to assume is that his subscribers will feel more lost during
down periods than if they knew the inner workings of the system.
It's the owner's responsibility to keep from getting too
emotional when bombarded with the same questions over and over
again. It's the price for keeping a system's code
proprietary.
I respect your opinion but ultimately I don't really
agree. I understand someone becoming emotional but the cost
of keeping something that we designed proprietary and went to great
length to explain and disclose what will and won't be shared should
not be then receiving a bombardment of questions which people could
already know would be proprietary or criticism.
The burden of the developer is to make sure the signals are
delivered to their base and provide support for those signals since
the users cannot know of the signals on their own due to the lack
of knowledge of the rule set. We have done that with the SPY
section, blog, emails and SMS.
Ultimately I think there is some leveraging going on, driving up
emotion and causing a sense of panic in a few. We saw after
and during the last trade posts and PMs about how much money people
made with numbers from 35-350% when the system itself was about a
3-5% winner (I forget exactly how much offhand). When Matt
and I were talking about those messages we both commented on the
fact that to get results like that people must be taking on great
leverage, and speaking of a knife cutting both ways, it works on
the up and down.
I agree 100% with Tom. In fact I PM'ed Matt shortly after the
system was open and I saw people immediately getting overly
emotional and reaching out to him as if he was somehow responsible
for holding their hands. I noted that if he allowed himself to be
put in that position it would quickly begin to take a much greater
emotional toll on him than is warranted by the price he
is recieving for providing this service.
This is a forum for discussing quant/system trading, not a
psychologists forum. As such the posts should be kept focused on
how to trade the system, (which is really very simple to
explain...just do what it tells you).
If folks want advice on how to better control their emotions so
they can do what they are supposed to do when using the system,
(follow it), that is reasonable topic of discussion that will
benefit all. However, to imply that Matt should be required to
share his proprietary system information to those members that
can't control their emotions and stick with trade is completely
backwards.IMHO
According to your logic there is not need for this forum (how to
trade this system: just do it). I tend to agree with
that. I think that this forum itself may be a mistake, since
it creates the opportunity for people to vent. Without the
forum, they might me more hesitant, since sending a pm is somewhat
more daunting (to me, at least) than simpy posting on a board.
As to implying that Matt should share his proprietary
information: I don't know to whom you're responding.
Certainly not to me, since I said nothing of the sort.
What I did say is the sellers of black box systems should be
prepared for a certain amount of emotion from their subscribers
during rough times. I'm not condoning such behavior, I'm
simply saying that it's inevitable and part of the cost of doing
business.
Part of the reason for this is that there are no mechanical
systems. People will always try to second guess a system,
deciding whether or not to take a trade. If you don't believe
that, look at the posts on this board. Again, I think this is
a mistake, but if I were selling a black box system I would be
prepared for it since I think that it is going to happen given
human nature.
I also repeat my request for the developers of the system to
outline how they would quantify the conditions for its possible
failure (which I hope never happens).
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SPY Notes
Posted by tom on 5th of Aug 2011 at 09:34 am
I frankly think Matt has already shared too much about the system especially considering since it was launched there was a general overview and then the rest was noted as a "Black Box". The box is not the clear box, its black, meaning no much read through. I think that people tend to start and get emotional, maybe to ascr's point due to over-leveraging or maybe just being down on a position, and then they want details - which is understandable - but the details of the system are proprietary and I believe Matt and BPT should err on the side of caution and share less.
Also, I know the details of the system and trust me it doesn't change being in a down position. You think it will change things knowing this or that but it doesn't because it doesn't change your current positions. It is emotion, IMO.
I agree with you Tom.
Posted by algyros on 5th of Aug 2011 at 09:45 am
I agree with you Tom. But, to be fair, the knife cuts both ways. Part of the burden that the owner of a black box system has to assume is that his subscribers will feel more lost during down periods than if they knew the inner workings of the system. It's the owner's responsibility to keep from getting too emotional when bombarded with the same questions over and over again. It's the price for keeping a system's code proprietary.
I respect your opinion but
Posted by tom on 5th of Aug 2011 at 11:27 am
I respect your opinion but ultimately I don't really agree. I understand someone becoming emotional but the cost of keeping something that we designed proprietary and went to great length to explain and disclose what will and won't be shared should not be then receiving a bombardment of questions which people could already know would be proprietary or criticism.
The burden of the developer is to make sure the signals are delivered to their base and provide support for those signals since the users cannot know of the signals on their own due to the lack of knowledge of the rule set. We have done that with the SPY section, blog, emails and SMS.
Ultimately I think there is some leveraging going on, driving up emotion and causing a sense of panic in a few. We saw after and during the last trade posts and PMs about how much money people made with numbers from 35-350% when the system itself was about a 3-5% winner (I forget exactly how much offhand). When Matt and I were talking about those messages we both commented on the fact that to get results like that people must be taking on great leverage, and speaking of a knife cutting both ways, it works on the up and down.
And I respect yours, Tom.
Posted by algyros on 5th of Aug 2011 at 11:53 am
And I respect yours, Tom. Thanks for airing it.
I agree 100% with Tom.
Posted by chartboy on 6th of Aug 2011 at 08:34 am
I agree 100% with Tom. In fact I PM'ed Matt shortly after the system was open and I saw people immediately getting overly emotional and reaching out to him as if he was somehow responsible for holding their hands. I noted that if he allowed himself to be put in that position it would quickly begin to take a much greater emotional toll on him than is warranted by the price he is recieving for providing this service.
This is a forum for discussing quant/system trading, not a psychologists forum. As such the posts should be kept focused on how to trade the system, (which is really very simple to explain...just do what it tells you).
If folks want advice on how to better control their emotions so they can do what they are supposed to do when using the system, (follow it), that is reasonable topic of discussion that will benefit all. However, to imply that Matt should be required to share his proprietary system information to those members that can't control their emotions and stick with trade is completely backwards.IMHO
C
Chartboy, According to your logic there
Posted by algyros on 6th of Aug 2011 at 09:29 am
Chartboy,
According to your logic there is not need for this forum (how to trade this system: just do it). I tend to agree with that. I think that this forum itself may be a mistake, since it creates the opportunity for people to vent. Without the forum, they might me more hesitant, since sending a pm is somewhat more daunting (to me, at least) than simpy posting on a board.
As to implying that Matt should share his proprietary information: I don't know to whom you're responding. Certainly not to me, since I said nothing of the sort.
What I did say is the sellers of black box systems should be prepared for a certain amount of emotion from their subscribers during rough times. I'm not condoning such behavior, I'm simply saying that it's inevitable and part of the cost of doing business.
Part of the reason for this is that there are no mechanical systems. People will always try to second guess a system, deciding whether or not to take a trade. If you don't believe that, look at the posts on this board. Again, I think this is a mistake, but if I were selling a black box system I would be prepared for it since I think that it is going to happen given human nature.
I also repeat my request for the developers of the system to outline how they would quantify the conditions for its possible failure (which I hope never happens).