Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 10:46 am
Hey retirefire, I get your point and sarcasm. But let me give
you the counterpoint in all seriousness.
I installed a 20 kW solar array on my property three years ago.
I have not paid an electric bill since. I'm still tied into the
grid and get full credit for every kW I send to the utility. I draw
against that credit on cloudy days, at night, etc. The original
payback timeline was going to be about 8 years give or take thanks
to tax credits and the fact I did a lot of the work
myself.
That payback period is coming down steadily as electric rates go
up. And I live in the northern US (42 degrees latitude), where we
only average about 4 hours of sunlight a day on an annual basis. We
have an all-electric house, which helps a lot with the payback
timeline. Anyway, I am a big fan of the economics of alternative
energy. I'm considering buying an electric car and adding a few
more panels to pay for my 'fuel' costs, in other words free once
the cost of the panels is defrayed. Panels are cheap these days.
What cost the most money was the electrical equipment and
electricians running the electrical lines. Those are all in now.
anyway, food for thought.
I worked for solar install company as controller for a few
years. Payback was/is typically 12-15 years on a grid tied
system and we are in a very sunny area, but depends a lot on what
utility does, which varies widely (some buy back at retail, some at
wholesale, etc). Payback is likely getting longer now as
labor and materials have gone up so much in the last couple years.
Battery backup is cool but absolutely not cost effective.
5kw battery backup is in the $18-20k range. It would only run
critical loads for a period of time, so you have to REALLY want to
not have any reliance on other energy, and have lots of disposable
income to go that route. I can go to Costco and buy a 7.5kw
generator that runs on gas/propane/NG for around $800! I am
also definitely not ready for full EV vehicle. Again, you
have to be wealthy enough to have an 'extra' vehicle just for
commuting more 'locally' (and don't get me started on the EV truck
thing....if you use a truck for what a truck actually is for
(pulling trailers/loads, its a joke unless you want to stop every
100 miles for 3 hrs). I'm definitely not planning my trip
across states or the country around where my stops for charging are
going to be, and then sit there for a few hours..... My
opinion for average person is hybrid or plug-in/hybrid makes way
more sense still. Maybe in 10 years charging stations will be
faster and more prevelant, and EV vehicle cost will drop...... or
maybe the electric grid will be failing even worse since the
infrastructure can't support all the charging needs (unless we stop
demonize fossil fuels and go to more nuclear generation which makes
a LOT of sense). California's stated goals for
electrification are waayyyyy out in left field, the grid can't
manage today let alone the extra loads they want to put on the grid
in the near future. Just my random thoughts/observations.
Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:37 am
Energy tax credits are not a new idea. Few industries have
received more help from taxpayers than the oil industry. Been going
on for a long time too..
The difference is that the average American taxpayer benefits
from the oil industry tax breaks, and always has. More oil industry
tax credits= more oil drilled=lower gas prices at the pump. For
everyone. That was the point. Your tax breaks on your solar panels
benefit only you. I wonder how profitable Tesla would be without
basically being tax payer funded? Not knocking you for taking
advantage of it. It's there for you if you want it. OK, I'm
done.
Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:05 am
They degrade to 80% efficiency in 20 years. In short, they'll
last a long time. I can just add panels to make up the difference
if I am so inclined. But to be honest, they will outlive me. Doubt
I'll care much at that point
Posted by retirefire on 12th of Aug 2022 at 10:56 am
Fantastic view, but I think that arrangement is out of range for
100 millions of Americans. I may be wrong but isn't most
electricity especially for electric cars coming from coal fired
plants? Plus the lithium and cobalt mining is like a nuclear blast
on the environment not to mention the child labor in African
mines.
It does seem a shame we aren't on a grid like the inventor Tesla
proposed. Free electricity transmitted like AM radio waves. I just
have a problem with this transitory transition taking place while
the economy is destroyed and blame placed in other areas. Keep
posting Timebandit. I nominate you next for cameo doing sectors in
newsletters!
I heard of Goldman Sachs
Posted by watcdy on 12th of Aug 2022 at 08:56 am
I heard of Goldman Sachs analyst on Bloomberg yesterday target oil at 130 a barrel by your end
We will all have windmills
Posted by retirefire on 12th of Aug 2022 at 09:07 am
We will all have windmills by then (sarc)
Hey retirefire, I get your
Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 10:46 am
Hey retirefire, I get your point and sarcasm. But let me give you the counterpoint in all seriousness.
I installed a 20 kW solar array on my property three years ago. I have not paid an electric bill since. I'm still tied into the grid and get full credit for every kW I send to the utility. I draw against that credit on cloudy days, at night, etc. The original payback timeline was going to be about 8 years give or take thanks to tax credits and the fact I did a lot of the work myself.
That payback period is coming down steadily as electric rates go up. And I live in the northern US (42 degrees latitude), where we only average about 4 hours of sunlight a day on an annual basis. We have an all-electric house, which helps a lot with the payback timeline. Anyway, I am a big fan of the economics of alternative energy. I'm considering buying an electric car and adding a few more panels to pay for my 'fuel' costs, in other words free once the cost of the panels is defrayed. Panels are cheap these days. What cost the most money was the electrical equipment and electricians running the electrical lines. Those are all in now. anyway, food for thought.
I worked for solar install
Posted by blayden on 12th of Aug 2022 at 02:01 pm
I worked for solar install company as controller for a few years. Payback was/is typically 12-15 years on a grid tied system and we are in a very sunny area, but depends a lot on what utility does, which varies widely (some buy back at retail, some at wholesale, etc). Payback is likely getting longer now as labor and materials have gone up so much in the last couple years. Battery backup is cool but absolutely not cost effective. 5kw battery backup is in the $18-20k range. It would only run critical loads for a period of time, so you have to REALLY want to not have any reliance on other energy, and have lots of disposable income to go that route. I can go to Costco and buy a 7.5kw generator that runs on gas/propane/NG for around $800! I am also definitely not ready for full EV vehicle. Again, you have to be wealthy enough to have an 'extra' vehicle just for commuting more 'locally' (and don't get me started on the EV truck thing....if you use a truck for what a truck actually is for (pulling trailers/loads, its a joke unless you want to stop every 100 miles for 3 hrs). I'm definitely not planning my trip across states or the country around where my stops for charging are going to be, and then sit there for a few hours..... My opinion for average person is hybrid or plug-in/hybrid makes way more sense still. Maybe in 10 years charging stations will be faster and more prevelant, and EV vehicle cost will drop...... or maybe the electric grid will be failing even worse since the infrastructure can't support all the charging needs (unless we stop demonize fossil fuels and go to more nuclear generation which makes a LOT of sense). California's stated goals for electrification are waayyyyy out in left field, the grid can't manage today let alone the extra loads they want to put on the grid in the near future. Just my random thoughts/observations.
tax credits. "You're welcome," says
Posted by brophy on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:23 am
tax credits. "You're welcome," says the American taxpayer.
Energy tax credits are not
Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:37 am
Energy tax credits are not a new idea. Few industries have received more help from taxpayers than the oil industry. Been going on for a long time too..
Oil: A Big Investment with Big Tax Breaks
The difference is that the
Posted by brophy on 12th of Aug 2022 at 12:35 pm
The difference is that the average American taxpayer benefits from the oil industry tax breaks, and always has. More oil industry tax credits= more oil drilled=lower gas prices at the pump. For everyone. That was the point. Your tax breaks on your solar panels benefit only you. I wonder how profitable Tesla would be without basically being tax payer funded? Not knocking you for taking advantage of it. It's there for you if you want it. OK, I'm done.
Big difference in "tax credits"
Posted by Ray on 12th of Aug 2022 at 12:02 pm
Big difference in "tax credits" (subsidy to reduce tax) and "tax deductions" (expenses incurred in producing a product for sale).
yes sir to the 43%
Posted by retirefire on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:26 am
yes sir to the 43% of households that paid taxes last year
What's the expected life on
Posted by Trendie on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:03 am
What's the expected life on those panels before they have to be replaced?
They degrade to 80% efficiency
Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:05 am
They degrade to 80% efficiency in 20 years. In short, they'll last a long time. I can just add panels to make up the difference if I am so inclined. But to be honest, they will outlive me. Doubt I'll care much at that point
Fantastic view, but I think
Posted by retirefire on 12th of Aug 2022 at 10:56 am
Fantastic view, but I think that arrangement is out of range for 100 millions of Americans. I may be wrong but isn't most electricity especially for electric cars coming from coal fired plants? Plus the lithium and cobalt mining is like a nuclear blast on the environment not to mention the child labor in African mines.
It does seem a shame we aren't on a grid like the inventor Tesla proposed. Free electricity transmitted like AM radio waves. I just have a problem with this transitory transition taking place while the economy is destroyed and blame placed in other areas. Keep posting Timebandit. I nominate you next for cameo doing sectors in newsletters!
Hahaha, no cameos for me
Posted by timebandit on 12th of Aug 2022 at 11:00 am
Hahaha, no cameos for me man, but I appreciate the encouragement. Peace, brother.
4 hours - get a
Posted by watcdy on 12th of Aug 2022 at 10:55 am
4 hours - get a sun lamp. Where are you. Great that it’s paying off even in limited sun light
looking at doing the same
Posted by pep8261 on 12th of Aug 2022 at 10:55 am
looking at doing the same
Sounds bullish
Posted by fundamentalvalues on 12th of Aug 2022 at 08:56 am
Sounds bullish